ALONG THE SEAM

The Memory Generation

Episode 18: Elana Israel

INTRO

Rachael Cerrotti: Hey Everyone, I’m Rachael Cerrotti. Welcome to The Memory Generation – a podcast about the memories we inherit and the stories that are passed from one generation to the next. This is the last episode of our first season and I have my cousin Elana with me.

As many of you already know, I have spent my entire adult life researching and retracing my grandmother's war story. She was from Czechoslovakia and the sole Holocaust survivor in her family. She was on her own from the age of 14 and stateless for 17 years. My work following her story started as a photojournalism project and then it became a narrative podcast, then a book and it will soon be a museum exhibit. I’ve lived deep inside of her history for more than a decade and yet up to this point, I’ve also made the choice not to interview any of my extended family members. So, this conversation with my cousin carries a lot of weight for me and I’m just really grateful to be ending our season here.

So, what to know about Elana? Elana is five years older than me and growing up, I thought she was the coolest person I’d ever met. She is a trained psychologist now and a relationship coach. And, her memories of my grandmother, who we all called Mutti, hold a certain perspective. Elana is the eldest of us 7 grandchildren and in the months before Mutti died, Elana lived with her as one of her caregivers. And then in the years after Mutti’s death, Elana struggled with addiction. And that’s a big part of our conversation today. We talk about making amends and how addiction affects grief. And, we reflect on the trauma that our grandmother carried throughout her life.

A couple things to note about this episode. First - you will get to hear my grandmother’s voice. You will know it when you hear it. And, the second thing is that we mention my late husband in this conversation – his name was Sergio and he passed away when he was 28.

Elana and I recorded this conversation on October 29, 2022. That weekend marked the five year anniversary of her sobriety. She spoke to me from her home outside of Philadelphia, Pennsylvania. And I, as usual, was here in Portland, Maine.

INTERVIEW

Elana Israel: I read over our emails this morning, and I've been thinking about Mutti, and, you know, this is like a reflective weekend for me. And I woke up feeling anxious for no reason, but for all the reasons. I just prayed and meditated and I'll probably cry and it's fine.

Rachael Cerrotti: So on that note, why don't you introduce yourself?

Elana Israel: Hi. My name is Elana Israel and I am Mutti's oldest grandchild. I am 38 now. And I live in Philadelphia and I am a relationship coach and I have a little three year old boy. And that's me in a nutshell.

Rachael Cerrotti: So we are going to enter this conversation - I mean, we're both like professional women, but we're going to enter as Mutti’s granddaughters.

Elana Israel: Mmm

Rachael Cerrotti: Let's just, like, zoom right back to childhood. Being the eldest grandchild and having lived very close to her which I did not, tell me about Mutti.

Elana Israel: Mutti was my biggest supporter. When I was a kid, it felt like my mom, who is Mutti's oldest child, and my grandmother kind of came together. They were like a package deal. They were very close and my mom and I were very close. And it often felt like the three oldest women in their generation together. And it was like a cool thing that we had. Mutti was very different with us than she was with the rest of the world. Like I noticed from a very young age that she was tough with the rest of the world and very soft with us. A big part of my childhood with Mutti actually has to do with my relationship with my dad. My dad and I had a difficult relationship when I was growing up. We're great now, but growing up we were not. You know, my dad is like a Middle Eastern military man. And I was a girl who wanted to be a woman way before I actually was one. You know, and my dad just did not know how to handle that. I remember the first time I tried to shave my legs, I was 12 - and this will tell you how much I knew about shaving - I was in my room doing it dry. [laughter]. No water, no shaving cream, no soap, no nothing. Just like –

Rachael Cerrotti: Oof

Elana Israel: – 12 year old girl with, like, this little razor. And for whatever reason, that was the moment that my dad walked in. And I don't even remember him being like the guy that walks in without knocking or anything, but he did. And he lost his mind. And my dad was a very talented handyman. And so his way of solving that problem was to take my bedroom door off of the hinges. [laughter]. So this is like kind of what I was dealing with growing up in terms of like me going through puberty and my dad trying to stop it in its tracks.

Rachael Cerrotti: Like, if I see it, it won't happen. Like, if I can watch you.

Elana Israel: Yeah, like I will –

Rachael Cerrotti: puberty won't happen.

Elana Israel: I will, like, put you in a - in a glass box with no door. And so it just, like, won't happen, you know? [laughter]. And Mutti was the one who would come over and just make it all better. I remember, like, two specific things. One was always, you know, I always hated my legs. It was like my thighs - I was very self-conscious about them. I felt like they were too big. And I would tell her that. And I would wear, like, these - these skirts that were like, you know, shortish. And she would, like, hike them up - hike up my skirt. And be like, show off those legs. Like, they're so beautiful. And like, it just meant so much to me that she was like, screw that. She was just like, my biggest supporter. And then I cried a lot when it came to my dad and my grandmother - Mutti would come over and she used to play a lot of tennis and she had calluses on her hands from tennis. And she used to show me her hands and she used to say, do you see these calluses? This is what I've built over time. It was painful to build them, but now they protect me. And she said, When it comes to your dad, you're going to have to build some calluses and you're going to have to be strong. And I did. I just really remember that she would come into my bedroom and sit on my bed with me and take my hand and show me her hand and say, you're going to have to build some of these.

Rachael Cerrotti: Yeah, she would do that to me too. And I remember she would, like, circle with her pointer finger and she would hold it down. It was almost forcing your hand to be there and feel the tickle.

Elana Israel: Well her pointer finger is kind of famous.

Rachael Cerrotti: Yeah, she would, like, chase you around the house and like try to stab you with it.

Elana Israel: Yeah. Yeah. And she would, like, light it on fire and then like put it in her mouth and put it out.

Rachael Cerrotti: With her acrylic nail.

Elana Israel: Yeah. Like her pointer finger, like had, you know, we should have named it.

Rachael Cerrotti: We still can. I Remember that - cause after my podcast and book came out, We Share The Same Sky. Like, it was so nerve wracking for me to have family consume it, read it, listen to it, because I didn't ask anyone their opinions as I was doing it and we'll get to that. But I remember one of the things that you wrote to me was about the skirt being hiked up because I write about that. And you said that you thought it was just you.

Elana Israel: Yeah.

Rachael Cerrotti: Most grandchildren don't have their grandmother running around telling them to show more leg and when I get into conversations with female friends in, like, this adult part of life about, you know, just everything that's been happening in the world with the way people talk about women and women empowerment and just all the things that come along with that, I always say, that was never even a thing that I've ever had to think about. Just from a young age, I was told and I knew from Mutti that, like, your womanhood is beautiful and show it. Like your legs are great, show them. Like, do not hide your body.

Elana Israel: Yeah

Rachael Cerrotti: Like, embrace your body. And I don't think that many granddaughters get that lesson.

Elana Israel: Well, femininity is such a - not even femininity, but just womanhood is such a theme with Mutti. A lot of things were about being a woman. She was very loving towards our male cousins. But I think that if you had this conversation with one of them, it would be very different conversation. They probably had very different experiences with her. She was so proud to be a woman. She felt very connected to womanhood. My mom also feels very connected to womanhood and so do I. And so I have to wonder whether that's something that was passed on or is it just something natural for me? I don't think I'll ever know. You know, and when I got older, like she wanted to talk about sex and she wanted to talk about boys. She gave me, like, some really great advice in relationships.

Rachael Cerrotti: I don't know if you would feel this way too, but oftentimes when people ask me about what kind of sadness I have for her, I say it's not really the Holocaust piece of it and it's not the war and it's not the losing her family. That's all there. But I think I’ve, like, processed it intellectually and from a historical space, but like my heart really breaks thinking that, like, she never got to be the, like, woman she really wanted to be. Like, I don't know if she ever found the relationship in her life and this is no shade on the two men she married, but, like, I don't know if she ever found the relationship that excited her.

Elana Israel: Yeah, I don't think she did.

Rachael Cerrotti: That for me makes me so sad because I could feel that energy and I can feel it in her diaries and I can feel it in, like, the way that she was with us and hiking up our skirts. And, you know, it's funny, but there's something much deeper in there. And I think she had all this expression that never found an outlet.

Elana Israel: Yeah. I think that that was part of her connection with us was I think we were part of her trying to get that outlet, you know. And yeah, I agree. I don't think - I mean Grandpa was an awesome guy. Bernd was an awesome guy. It's nothing to do with them. I just think when you are growing up in total survival mode - I mean, we talk about survival mode, like, here in America when we're going through something - that's beyond my ability to imagine a survival mode. When you grow up in that kind of survival mode, like there's no space for like, you know, self-actualization and like -

Rachael Cerrotti: Exploration and reflection and -

Elana Israel: Yeah. there is no space for that. And it's not like the second the war ended, all of a sudden she had that space. She didn't, like, you know, she was recovering, she was grieving. She was, you know, working, trying to learn a new language, like she was in survival mode way past the war.

Rachael Cerrotti: I think she was in survival mode her whole her whole life.

Elana Israel: Her whole life. Yeah.

Rachael Cerrotti: I mean, she was stateless for 17 years. And even after she settled into this role as an American wife, she was trying to survive a marriage that wasn't working.

Elana Israel: Yeah

Rachael Cerrotti: And trying to survive motherhood and working multiple jobs and then a mental breakdown. That's my perspective as a granddaughter that it always seemed to be a struggle.

Elana Israel: Yeah. You know, I lived with her the last few months of her life and it was every single day. So for people who don't know, like, she had a mental breakdown. She had pancreatic cancer. I honestly don't even remember which one came first.

Rachael Cerrotti: The mental breakdown was like when I was thirteen-ish, like when I was bat mitzvah age.

Elana Israel: Okay

Rachael Cerrotti: And she, like, got better. She had shock therapy. And then -

Elana Israel: Yeah. And then she got the cancer and then got worse again. Yep. So every day for months we would wake up in the morning and I would make her breakfast because she didn't really want to eat, but she would if I kind of made her. And the only thing I could ever get her to eat was toast with jelly. And every day she would say to me, Elana, you're a psychologist, explain it to me. Why was I strong my whole life? And now I'm like this. And I think it's because she was in survival mode her whole life. And for anyone who's ever been in survival mode, you don't break down. Survival mode is the opposite. It's the adrenaline. It's you know, you're trying to stay alive. And I didn't really say these words to her, but like my theory was, well this is an accumulation of your entire life finally coming to a head. And she never allowed herself to fully feel and zero judgment. I don't know that I could if I were her. I think her breakdown was just her body and her brain being like, we can't hold onto this anymore. We can't hold onto this anymore. I think that was the end of the survival mode.

Rachael Cerrotti: And that breakdown, that's how I start telling her story, at least in the book because it's one of those things that I remember witnessing as a pre-teen, early teenager. But it's not something I really processed or thought about until years later. Like, I mean, years after I started retracing her story later.

Elana Israel: Yeah.

Rachael Cerrotti: I feel like it didn't make sense to me until I dug into her war story, started to put together all the pieces of her life before and then was like, ooh, that's grief.

Elana Israel: Hmm

Rachael Cerrotti: That's losing your family at 14. That's being a refugee multiple times over. That's not having a home for all these years. That's feeling like you had to, you know, get yourself into a marriage to satisfy certain missing elements of family rather than get yourself into a marriage because it, like, stimulates you, you know, sexually and emotionally. And also, that's coming to the end of your life and questioning what am I chasing anymore? Or what am I working for anymore? And it was really profound for me, but it wasn't profound for me until easily over a decade later.

Elana Israel: I think some of the most profound things hit you later. And that was always the other question that she would ask me is like, how are people going to remember me? What is my legacy? Like, what was the point? What did I leave behind? She was so –

Rachael Cerrotti: Obsessed.

Elana Israel: Yeah, she was so obsessed and focused with leaving a legacy. And that's why I just feel so grateful that you wrote that book and that you are speaking to high school students. And you have made sure that her legacy has been carried on because like, of course, the family will carry on her legacy. But on a bigger level, which is, like, I think what she was really asking about - everything that she went through and those diaries that she wrote that when she wrote them, she had no idea, you know, what a big impact they would have. And now, like high school kids learn about the war in a completely different way.

Rachael Cerrotti: Mmhmm

Elana Israel: Because I remember learning about World War Two and it was like the driest textbook about like specific battles and like, just -

Rachael Cerrotti: These are the names of the concentration camps and these are the numbers and these are the dates.

Elana Israel: Yeah.

Rachael Cerrotti: And it doesn't get any, like, emotional context to any of it.

Elana Israel: Yeah. And then, you know, being Jewish, we have all of these speakers and documentaries and movies that try and give that to you. But to be perfectly honest, I could never watch them.

Rachael Cerrotti: Mmhmm.

Elana Israel: I just couldn't go there. And so your book for me was - it was so multifaceted. I don't know if we're talking about the book yet, but this is where I'm at. It was so multifaceted for me because it was like I got reintroduced to Mutti. you know, when I was living with her, umm, those last few months of her life, umm, my addiction had started. I wasn't aware that it was addiction. I wouldn't have called it that then, but it had started. And, nobody else knew. I didn't know. It was still, like, just kind of low key, maybe this is a problem, maybe not, oh well, type of thing. And so when she died, I was already kind of in the throes of opiates. And, you know, it took me a few years to get out of it. And, I never grieved her. I never really grieved her. I feel at peace about our relationship. I didn't have any, like, regrets with her. I didn't have anything that I felt like wasn't tied up but I didn't grieve the loss.

Rachael Cerrotti: What does that look like to you?

Elana Israel: What? Grieving the loss?

Rachael Cerrotti: Mmhmm.

Elana Israel: Umm, just sitting quietly in my right state of mind –

Rachael Cerrotti: Mmhmm.

Elana Israel: willing to feel whatever comes up for me.

Rachael Cerrotti: Mmhmm.

Elana Israel: Because if you think about what opiates are, they are painkillers. They're used medically to kill physical pain. But it's the same receptors for the emotional pain. And so when those receptors are being attacked in that way, you don't feel anything.

Rachael Cerrotti: Numbing out?

Elana Israel: Total numbing out, like, total you don't care what's happening. It's really crazy. When you stop doing the drugs, it's not like all of a sudden you are, like, healthy and feel everything and all of that. It's a road of recovery. So when I was in it, obviously I couldn't grieve because I couldn't feel. And when I was first coming out of it, there were just too many other things to deal with. You know, I had spent five years, like, ruining my life. And Mutti was not at the forefront of my psyche at that point.

Rachael Cerrotti: I want to pause you really quickly and just share that you and I weren't in touch for most of those years –

Elana Israel: Yeah

Rachael Cerrotti: that you were in addiction which was really hard because you were my role model and best friend. And, I mean, you were the one who inspired me to illegally pierce my bellybutton at 14.

Elana Israel: [laughter]. What's more important than that?

Rachael Cerrotti: And then pierce my tongue at 18 which I'm sure most people in my life don't know I ever did. But I remember when we got back in touch and you got sober and you were making your amends and we started emailing and we can dig into some of that as we talk about your sobriety because I know this is a big weekend for you that we're recording this. It's your five year anniversary. But when the book came out, we were already in touch and you were sending me, like little voice notes about every chapter as you read them, and it was some of the most like. I was, like, so excited to read and you read the book so slowly and I was just like, ooh what is she going to say about this? And you had said to me at some point that this was the first time you felt like you really grieved for her.

Elana Israel: Yeah.

Rachael Cerrotti: And I don't think I will ever receive a piece of feedback that is more important. It was like the most - compliment is too low of a word. To know that that could be there for you to do that just profoundly continues to impact me.

Elana Israel: Yeah, it is impactful. And I just feel so grateful. I personally believe that things are brewed in timing in a certain way. And I feel like it was absolutely no coincidence that we reconnected and I was finally in a space where I could really listen to the podcast, read the book, take it in. I mean, I think it took me like eight months to read it or something, like I really took my time. I sent you, like, a note after, like, every sentence, like, ohh -

Rachael Cerrotti: Yeah.

Elana Israel: You know, yeah – it was good. It was me going back to that part of my life cause there's just like this black hole in my life of a few years and like me going back and kind of spending time with Mutti again and spending time with you again and doing it together and grieving her loss and also grieving what I did to you. Cause, I mean, I feel like it just, like needs to be said, you know, I stole from you. I stole money from you in my addiction. And when Sergiusz died, I was in rehab and my father came to visit me and he told me, but he didn't say it, like, in a way where he was like giving me news, he clearly thought I knew. The way he said it, it was clear he thought I knew. And I just was like, wait, wait, what did you just say? Like, I was so taken aback. And I think one of the most difficult emotions I've ever felt was in that moment when I realized that not only was it not appropriate to call you, but calling you would have made it worse. And for me, that moment was like, I don't know. Do you curse on this podcast?

Rachael Cerrotti: Go for it.

Elana Israel: In that moment I was just like, fuuuuck what have I done? Like, you know, you have these moments along the way, but I don't know how to explain it to people who haven't been there, but it's like the longer you stay sober, the more you start to understand who you were, what you did. And there's this weird, like, cognitive dissonance because you know you did those things, but it's not really who you are deep down. But it was who you are because you did it. So, it's like a mind game. But I remember where I was sitting and I remember him saying and I just remember like this overwhelming shame of just like, oh my God, I hurt one of the most important people in my life because you and I were so close growing up. Even though we lived in different states, it's not like we lived down the street.

Rachael Cerrotti: I remember for all those years that followed where we weren't in touch, I wasn't sure if we would ever be in touch again. Like, I wasn't sure if I was going to get a phone call that you had died. That's kind of what I assumed. And having just gone through my husband's death and like by the time we got back in touch again, it was really like somebody coming back from the dead. And like, that's oftentimes how I think about and I don't know if I've ever told you that, but a lesson that I've really, really taken from that is that you just don't know how things happen. Like, I wasn't sure we would ever be able to be close and now it's like all those things that you did that really hurt me. Like, I remember them, but they're not a source of pain. They're just a part of our history. I don't love what happened, but I love knowing that, you know, time does work.

Elana Israel: Yeah. And, I agree with you that time works. But I would add to it that time and I don't know how to say it in terms other than how we say it in AA, like living amends. You know, time can pass and you don't really make changes or you just make changes on the outside, but not on the inside.

Rachael Cerrotti: Mmhmm

Elana Israel: And that won't heal in the same way. For me, it’s time mixed with the willingness to look at things I don't want to look at, talk about things I don't want to talk about, write about things I don't want to write about and admit things that, you know, I thought I'd go to my grave with. And to put that stuff out there with the appropriate person and to process it and then to forgive myself. And that's, you know, something I've been working on over the last few years, but I don't know, I just think time is not enough. I think time has to come with some kind of shift and change and evolution that is real and comes from within and is constantly upheld.

Rachael Cerrotti: On a recent conversation I had for this show, someone quoted a line from AA. They said that there's this concept of, like, look back, but don't stare.

Elana Israel: Mmhmm.

Rachael Cerrotti: Can you unpack that in the frame of what you just said?

Elana Israel: When you hold yourself hostage to the things that you've done when you are legitimately making a change, it makes you less useful. It holds you back from being able to move forward in a way that will actually impact your life and your loved one's lives in a good way. So it's important to look back. You don't want to forget. But you don't want to live in the past. You have to remember. You have to, you know, make your amends and face it and all of that. But you can't sit in like morbid reflection is how it's written in AA. Like do not sit in morbid reflection because that will make you less useful. And if I want to restore my mother's peace of mind which I stole from her, if I want to restore relationships, if I want to restore my career - I have to keep walking forward. And yeah, there's a rearview mirror that I glance at so I know where I came from, but I have to keep looking forward.

Rachael Cerrotti: Let's talk about amends because I know that you've shared with me that the way that we made amends was very different than how you made amends with other people.

Elana Israel: Yeah.

Rachael Cerrotti: Why don't you tell the story?

Elana Israel: Yeah. So for people who don't know, AA is a 12 step recovery program and those 12 steps are in order for a reason. And the ninth step is to make amends to anyone that you've harmed in your addiction. And I went through my amends process at about six months sober. I made amends to my mom. I made amends to my stepdad, my brother, you know, all the people. And I knew I wasn't healthy enough yet to make amends to you. You were one of the biggest ones for me. Like, probably top two. And, I just knew that I wasn't ready at six months. And so I didn't reach out. And then, you know, some things happened in my life. I got married, I had a baby, I moved back to Philly and I got a new sponsor who is just a little bit tougher and a little bit more spiritual and all the things. And, you know, we started talking about you. I think I was two years sober or so. Maybe a little bit more. And I just knew that it was time. I had been hearing more about you because your career, which obviously is intermingled in our family, was taking off. Your podcast was going to come out. You know, things like that. And so I was hearing your name more. I was in a much healthier place. I was ready. And so I reached out to you just like I would reach out to anyone and just explained like, hey, you know, I want to come to you in person, which for us was like not down the street. But I wanted to come to Boston and I wanted to make amends in person. And I actually read over that email this morning. And I've made amends to a lot of people. And usually one of two things happen - either people say, yes, let's sit down and have a conversation. Regardless of how they're feeling about it, they want to have the conversation. Or people say, you know, I'm not interested or I'm not ready or, no. And with you it was I want to have a conversation, but I want to do it through writing. I want to do it through email. You had said something like, I've always been able to process things through writing and heal through writing and let's do it that way. And I remember I called my sponsor and I was like, is this allowed? And she was like - she was like, yeah, whatever she wants is allowed, you know? And I was like, okay. I was so nervous about making amends to you. It was so important to me and I had so much shame over it. And so we started to email back and forth a little bit. And right around that time, I don't know if your podcast had just come out or maybe it was shortly before, but I started listening to your podcast and I couldn't help myself but write you an email after every episode that I listened to. Like I just between hearing Mutti’s voice for the first time in ten years, which was beyond impactful. And hearing your voice for the first time in a long time and just knowing that we had just kind of gotten back in touch through email. I just couldn't help myself. I know that, you know, we were in - in a rocky place, but we had many years of foundation. And a big part of our foundation was deep conversations.

Rachael Cerrotti: Yeah.

Elana Israel: I couldn't listen to it and not reach out to you. It wasn't an option. And so I just started writing emails. You know, the part of me that felt shame wanted to, like, just apologize over and over and over again. But the higher self, the smarter part of me was like or you could just connect, you know. And so I just started writing you emails about each episode. After I listened to it, I wrote long emails about, you know, my thoughts and things that I heard and things that I thought about and you would respond. And I feel like that is how we reconnected.

Rachael Cerrotti: It is. And for me, our reconnecting - I don't know if it would have been really possible on my end, at least at that time without the podcast. To your point, like I didn't want I'm sorrys and I didn't want your shame. You know, I wasn't mad at you. I was sad for you. And I was sad for me because I missed you. And being able to connect with you, that just did so much more than any type of apology or platitude or forgiveness. And when I think about that, I just, like, can't help but wrap that in a bow of ‘it was Mutti that brought us back together.’

Elana Israel: Totally.

Hana Dubova, USC Shoah Foundation Testimony, Tape 7: I know that I am extremely independent. I make my own decisions. I take my own consequences. When my grandchildren says, you know, ‘this isn't fair. Life isn't fair.’ I says ‘Nobody told you life is fair. Life is not fair that you have to deal with.’ You cannot put the blame on somebody else. You have to deal with it. If you don't deal with it, you succumb or you become a washcloth. Now, you might make wrong decisions, but then you have to take the consequences. I'm not saying that I'm smart. I'm not saying that I made always the right decision. But what decision I made, I took the consequences if it was wrong.

Rachael Cerrotti: To move a little bit away from the addiction piece and back to like us being granddaughters, you know, I had spent all these years doing this work. I was very aware that I hadn't interviewed anyone in the family, which, I mean, I can have a long conversation about my thoughts of that, good or bad, but it was intentional. There were certain points I was going to and then I decided not to and decided, you know, I needed my own perspective on it. But at that point, I was really eager and ready to hear memories from other people. And you were bringing in all these memories that I didn't know and all of these associations with Mutti that I didn't know. So it was like I'd spent ten years at that point inside of her story, like literally relocated to another continent and like exited my life to kind of be in her life. Like, talk about staring at the past. And to be reminded in that moment that like my perspective is one little thread. And then you're coming at me with all these stories of Mutti that I was like, I didn't know that or I didn't think about this. Like, I think that one of the things that you wrote me in one of those emails was about like spirituality and God.

Elana Israel: Yeah

Rachael Cerrotti: And you and I have different relationships with Judaism and spirituality and God. You were raised with more of an orthodox background. I was raised reform. Like we're opposite ends of the spectrum there. And so the way that you looped some of that stuff in was really expansive for me. Like, it expanded my own - you know, I write a lot about limits in the book and in the podcast about, like our understanding of the world is limited and it always will be. And then when you started writing me and sharing with me your memories and your thoughts, it was like - it just highlighted how limited mine is in such a beautiful way.

Elana Israel: Yeah. I'll tell the story of the email I wrote you about Mutti and God and all of that because I have a very strong relationship with God these days. And it is the center of my recovery. And it's not necessarily related to Judaism, although I love Judaism and I love the traditions and I'm raising my son Jewish and, you know, all of that. But my intimate relationship with, like, a higher power is actually kind of outside of that and outside of anything else. And all of that started when I was like five years old. And Mutti was such a fun grandmother.

Rachael Cerrotti: She was fun.

Elana Israel: She was so much fun. I mean, she would just do anything to make things fun for us, you know.

Rachael Cerrotti: Ridiculous. Antics.

Elana Israel: Yeah. Yeah. Ridiculous. Like, you know, she’s famous for making concoctions or for letting us -

Rachael Cerrotti: Letting us

Elana Israel: make concoctions. And I remember vividly like being at Ross and Emily's house and like we had put like toothpaste with like ketchup and like, and I don't know why, but I have this vivid memory of Ross being like, ooh, barbecue sauce. [laughter].

Elana ISrael: And I was like. I was like, no way. He's like, we've already done the toothpaste.

Rachael Cerrotti: And for listeners, Ross and Emily are two of our cousins so, yeah.

Elana Israel: Yes. Yes. And we would like giddily - I don't know if that's the word - but we were like, so giddy coming over to her with this concoction.

Rachael Cerrotti: Presenting it all like fancy.

Elana Israel: And the look on our parent’s face we’re like -.

Rachael Cerrotti: You're going to kill your grandmother.

Elana Israel: Like, no, don't do it. No way. And Mutti would just chug it. And we would be like –

Rachael Cerrotti: The whole thing.

Elana Israel: Ahhh. Like, I mean, I just remember us. Like, just the look - but the reason it was so fun though is because we all knew she was going to drink it.

Rachael Cerrotti: Oh yeah.

Elana Israel: She didn't ask what was in it. She didn’t smell it. She was just like screw it and drank it.

Rachael Cerrotti: It didn't even faze her.

Elana Israel: Oh my God. She was just so fun. So anyway, I'm glad that we digressed to that. But, umm, so I don't know, I was like five and I was with her for the afternoon and we were somewhere - we had gone and found a hill just to roll down it. Like that was the point. And I - and I just remember like we just rolled down this grassy hill over and over. I remember it was fall. I remember the leaves. And I'm not one of those people that has a lot of like young childhood memories. I really don't. But I remember that one. I had been, I guess, learning about God in school or my parents or something. And I remember we like, got tired and we just like laid there and, like, looked up and we were looking at clouds and like, shapes of clouds. And I just remember asking her, like what does God look like? And she pointed at the cloud and she said, God is in the clouds. And that was my first visualization of God. Right, of course, it could be anything, but that's what was instilled in my psyche from her. And to this day, that's still like the visualization in my head if I were to have one. And the most powerful part about that story is that years later, I found out that she didn't believe in God. And I understood why she didn't believe in God, of course, but it was like, wow, like you made sure in that moment that you didn't allow any of that to come up. And since I, as a five year old child, was asking about God, you pointed at the clouds and didn't say, well, we don't know if there's a God. You know like, she didn't bring any of that in. She didn't bring her trauma in. She didn't bring her confusion in. She didn’t bring any of that in. She just allowed for me to have, like, a safe, sacred moment. And that moment has shaped my life. And I just feel so grateful that she didn't feel the need to be an adult in that moment. She was just kind of there with me. It was really cool.

Rachael Cerrotti: There's a piece of her writing that's always been really important to me where she gets to America after, you know, surviving the Holocaust and is the only family member left and comes to America and a story unfolds. You can read about it in the book. And she is on a train at one point from Chicago to San Francisco. And she's taking this very famous train. It’s called the California Zephyr. And she's like looking at the country and America and her new home and is just like, wow, it's so big and talking to strangers and living her life. She's been in America for about a year or so - 26-27 years old around there. And she writes this piece about how this guy on the train asks her about where she's going and she tells him a lie and she says she's gonna to go visit family on the West Coast. And she writes to herself, you know, I thought it would be easier to tell him that than to tell him the truth.

Elana Israel: Yeah.

Rachael Cerrotti: What you just shared about God and the clouds reminds me of that which is like this choice that she was always making with herself of what does she share and what does she keep in? What does she share and what does she keep in? And just circling back to talking about her breakdown - you have to wonder if, like, by the time the breakdown comes, is it because she chose to keep too much in?

Elana Israel: Mmhmm.

Rachael Cerrotti: And then is that necessarily a bad thing? Like, is it - I don't know - it's an interesting question. Like, is it worse for it all to come up at one time and just deal with it then versus like sprinkle it along your journey and have to deal with it constantly? But that moment has – even though I wasn't there and it wasn't like a firsthand account that she told to me and it was something that I found in her archive. Like that story - that's changed my whole life because as someone who carries a very heavy history of being widowed when I was 27, it's not always the best addition to a casual conversation. So, constantly I'm playing this push and pull game with myself of like how much do I tell? How much do I -. You know, and she's really offered I think a very interesting guidebook for us as her next generation to think about - when do we push our opinion or share our story with other people. And when do we let the moment be? I relate that to the cloud and the God in some way in just, like, not imposing herself in a situation.

Elana Israel: Yeah.

Rachael Cerrotti: But still being a very active participant in it.

Elana Israel: As you're talking, I'm thinking about the difference between telling your story and allowing yourself to feel the emotions.

Rachael Cerrotti: Mmhmm.

Elana Israel: Because it's important to note that Mutti wasn't quiet about her story.

Rachael Cerrotti: No, definitely not.

Elana Israel: She would speak publicly about it. So I think it's an important differentiation to make that I do believe that her breakdown was an accumulation of a lifetime of not processing. And that you can tell your story and not process it.

Rachael Cerrotti: I agree.

Elana Israel: Yeah.

Rachael Cerrotti: She taught me a very important lesson that, like, the one thing we have control of is how we tell our story. Like I can see myself feeling pity for myself because I was widowed at 27 and my husband dropped dead in front of me. And it can be this, like, horrific story and that is true. That narrative does exist. Or I can carry forth the narrative of like, fuck, I'm really empowered. I went through something really, really difficult and I am thriving.

Elana Israel: Yeah.

Rachael Cerrotti: And I see her do it with her own story. And when I tell her story, I oftentimes relay that to audiences where I say, you know, my grandmother was really intentional about her story being an uplifting story.

Elana Israel: She was. That's very true. And what you were talking about of the two ways of telling your story. Like, I talk about this all the time in my professional life with clients. You can find evidence for both.

Rachael Cerrotti: Mmhmm.

Elana Israel: And you get to choose which one you nurture, you know. And, like, Mutti was a victim. And, Mutti was a survivor. But she told her story from the survivor standpoint. And, you know, you get to choose.

Rachael Cerrotti: Mmhmm.

Elana Israel: But, I think that what would have been helpful for her was that in a more private space to sit with the part of her that was a victim.

Rachael Cerrotti: Mmhmm. All right, I'm going to ask you a vulnerable question.

Elana Israel: Sure. Wait, you haven't done that yet?

Rachael Cerrotti: I'm going to ask you a vulnerable question that I'm scared to hear the answer of - how's that?

Elana Israel: All right. Go for it.

Rachael Cerrotti: Do you have any feelings about the fact that I just took the family story and ran with it and published it and didn't ask anyone for permission to do it?

Elana Israel: No.

Rachael Cerrotti: Why not?

Elana Israel: Not only is that a no but, it's a very strong no. No. I can't speak for the whole family, although no one has expressed to me that they think that that's a problem for them. But I am speaking for me right now when I say that - a couple of things. So, first of all, I feel like you did the research. Like you didn't just write a book about your perception of your grandmother. Like, you did the research like a badass. And to me, that makes a big difference.

Rachael Cerrotti: Mmhmm

Elana Israel: So that's number one. Number two is, like I said earlier, Mutti wanted nothing more than a legacy. And I think that that's something that you've provided for her. So I actually feel grateful. And number three - your telling of Mutti’s story doesn't have anything to do with, like, my story with Mutti. My story with Mutti is mine. And I just don't see the two as being related.

Rachael Cerrotti: I love that. That's what I tell people sometimes when I, you know, give talks or whatever, I try to really make clear the point that this is like one perspective of one thread of one way to tell the history. This is not the story of her life. This is not the story of a refugee. It’s not the story of the Holocaust. This is like one perspective at one moment in time -

Elana Israel: Yeah.

Rachael Cerrotti: of like a thread of history. My entire adult life has been spent inside of her story. And the thing that I've learned is that I will never know.

Elana Israel: Yeah.

Rachael Cerrotti: I will never know what she carried. I will never know how she actually felt.I don't even know which of her words might have been made up in her head that I took for fact.

Elana Israel: Yeah.

Rachael Cerrotti: I don't know. And I don't know if that matters. I don't think it does. I think part of the lesson that we get from the past generations is that we're not going to know and we have to figure out how to be okay with that. Along those lines, the way that I ended the book. I include a quote from her diary in 1941. So this is when she's already been away from home for two years. She's already a refugee. And she's about I guess like 15ish-16ish, somewhere around there. And she writes, “It feels almost physical how I miss writing into my journal and sharing myself, or with a book. Actually, I could not endure writing, because what affects me most deeply, most acutely, I could never express and don't even try to write it down.”

Elana Israel: Yeah. I mean, that sums it up. We don't know. And I'm not sure that she fully knew. And Mutti - I think a big part of Mutti's survival relied on her not writing those things down. When I think of Mutti now, especially after reading your book and listening to your podcast and taking some time to grieve - when I think of Mutti now, I just think of this big presence in my life. Like the matriarch of the family. And, like, I get to keep her. In my heart in any way that I want to.

Rachael Cerrotti I was nervous coming into this conversation and not in like a body anxious way, but just more of wanting to make it worthwhile. I was putting some pressure on myself to feel like this conversation should sum something up. And I sort of had to coach myself into the reality that, like, that's not the point. The point is that we share Mutti and there doesn't have to be some goal of like excavating something from the family history that now we feel satisfied. So I want to say thank you for indulging me in this. It's really, really meaningful for me. I just really love you and I'm really glad that you're healthy and I'm really proud of you that it's five years sober.

Elana Israel: I feel honored that you felt comfortable having me come on here. I know that you've been intentionally not interviewing family and I actually really agree with that decision. You and I have always had this ability to just talk so meaningfully and I in some ways actually feel closer to you than I did before the whole addiction thing. And umm, yeah, I just - I also want to say thank you. And I also really love you. And, you know, you've just - you've handled everything with so much grace. And umm –

Rachael Cerrotti: I like that word.

Elana Israel: Yeah.

Rachael Cerrotti: I like the word grace.

Elana Israel: We will let the masses know.

Rachael Cerrotti: We will let the masses know. And I too think you have handled everything with grace and continue too.

Elana Israel: Thank you.

Rachael Cerrotti: I love you.

Elana Israel: Love you too.

USC Shoah Foundation Interviewer: How many grandchildren do you have?

Hana Dubova, USC Shoah Foundation Testimony, Tape 73: Seven. I go there and take care of the kids. It's nice. You know, people are like, oh at your age, doesn't it tire you? But they always say that I tire them. So I'm glad that I'm here to be helpful and that they have this relationship. It's not just the grandmother coming for a visit. You know, I'm just part of - part of the whole package deal.

OUTRO

Rachael Cerrotti: Thank you so much to Elana for joining me today. And thank you to all of my conversation partners from these past 18 episodes.

This first season of The Memory Generation has been produced in partnership with USC Shoah Foundation during my time as their Inaugural Storyteller in Residence. USC Shoah Foundation is home to more than 55,000 testimonies of survivors and witnesses of genocide - including my grandmother’s. The clips you heard of her on this episode are from their Visual History Archive.

As always with this show, you can find additional links, book lists, testimony clips and all types of other resources and stories on our website: memorygenerationpodcast.com. And if you would like to listen to the first episode of We Share The Same Sky which is my narrative podcast about retracing my grandmother’s war story, I am dropping the first episode in this feed. And, you can find the full show wherever you are listening from now.

Our editor is Lene Bech Sillesen. Our executive producer and co-creator of this show is Stephen Smith. The music is from Kodomo.

I’m Rachael Cerrotti. Thanks for being with us.